1.what is apostle paul doing in the 1st chapter of colossians sire if not doing the job of an over seer?
2.what was he doing in ephesians especially read chapter 5
3.what was his advice to timothy on how to treat young and old widows including elders?
4.what did he say about deacons and who copuldnt be a deacon?
the list goes o including when he was rebuking the colossians that some leaders were preaching false doctrines
in other words this comment of yours is totally false sire
the road is exactly where you over see sire,or he would permanently stay in one place as a resident apostle,the only difference is that he had no church or ministry to speak of,but remember the word of the lord jesus himself said that we will do more than he did while he was alive, not the same but more, you are going into the administrative sphere which i wouldnt want to digress into let us not lose focus
there was a clear hierachy here,apostle paul was clearly not only a leader but a father to timothy and if you read from acts to all the letters,especially when he was in prison and sending letters through different people he always made mention of them as someone assisting him or a son e.t.c
I wonder if we still have brain to think again. Who is a pastor by the way? If u read the Bible, u would undsntd that God has given u the SAME power that the pastors claim they have. Why cant u pray, seek God's stand on whatever, approach the lady and seal the deal.
I wont be surprised if someone comes out here one day to tell us his/her pastor said b4 they bear children, they should inform the him (pastor). Honestly, we unwittingly equate these pastors to God, and I hope we know the consequences of playing God. It's just laziness. Our people are lazy. They cannot read the Bible and unravel things for themselves. Yes, most pple go to pastors to inteprete every Bible portion; the pastor of cos, does that in such a way that favours him (the pastor). I have always this question, the Bible says a menstruating woman should not enter the church. Y is it that pastors refuse to obey this? Simple: the offering collections will reduce by over 65%. So, they tend to allow women to come to church while in their monthly period. Was that not a law of the old testament? Why abandon some and take some?
Pls, pls, pls, let's talk about something else.
Apologies, I've been delayed.
first of all,i hope you will permit me if i say that from all i have read of your comments,this is simply your own personal views of what the functions of the pastor should be in the body of believers.
Permission granted. O boy you are taking this constituted authority thing to far 0! I was only joking about that elder thing!
But seriously! Absolutely. My views, based on my understanding. Presumably exactly what you posts are? Your views, based on your understanding? Hence your use of the phrase “personal convictions”?
while this is clearly stated and understood in the context of ephesians 4;11,in fact a secondary school bible studies student knows that none of them have pre-eminence over each other. i dont re collect having said a pastor is more than a prophet or evangelist,
You appear to be misunderstanding me as well as disagreeing with me. That’s not to say you would agree if you properly understood, so let me take it upon myself to clarify further.
And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
Does this mean;
1. All those 5 are present and have roles in a local congregation?
2. Does it mean all the functions are currently extant?
3. Could it be talking linearly - historically to date - and not just at a point in time?
4. What does an Apostle do? What would one do in a local congregation?
5. Per 4. For an Evangelist?
That was food for thought and not to overly digress, let me state this. A local congregation only requires shepherds and deacons – who are not even mentioned in this verse – to operate the biblically outlined church structure.
In view here is the role of the pastors/shepherds. I am not contrasting or comparing or grading them against the other 4 roles mentioned. I hope I have clarified that point.
all i said was that the traditional orthodox churches and new generation pentecostal churches as presently constituted have had "pastors" as shepherds of the congregation,
We are not debating what obtains, that is self evident. What we are discussing is what the bible outlines and the scriptural narrative depicts.
My first point was there was nothing to suggest sole authority pastorship – SAP - in the bible and the congregation was to be shepherded by a “plurality of elders” – POE.
Indeed that was the first question posed to you. Show scriptural backing for SAP, which you still haven’t done, instead referencing “what obtains”, tradition and the dictionary.
I am not suggesting a congregation is shepherded by a mix of the five – in any proportion – in Ephesians 4:11, or the seniority or right of pre-eminence (if it exists or matters) between them.
now we can look at all these churches and begin to find where a collection of the five have collectively made every decision including preaching altogether every sunday the fact that a pastor leads and sheperds does not automatically mean he is "the boss" in the context you are looking at it
I hope you understand my position now and realise that you misunderstood my context. Hopefully this point is now moot?
but it certainly gives him/her the mandate to have a say when a brother wants to marry a sister in a church he/she is a sheperd of. .in addittion i am struggling to see the relevance of this to the threadster's comment but oh well,
As the discussion progress, we should touch on roles, scope and spheres and hopefully give a fuller answer to the OP’s question. To do that we have to build logically. IMO the short answer is no. In discussion format it would be line upon line.
No mandate – scripturally anyway – is given. Counsel can be asked for and given, but it is not a question of asking for permission. That is for the familial authority to grant and its there the responsibility lies. Church/pastoral involvement is at best adjunct. Not mandatory and not binding. Mandate ke?
So in reference to “inform the pastor” scripturally there is no such thing, which was what we honed in on. If changed to “inform a pastor/elder/shepherd” the answer is still no, and there’s still no mandate. That’s not to say there is no recourse to counsel. But first recourse is always to the family. You seem to have overlooked that point in your Abraham/Isaac example.
i disagree with that unless you can show me assertive proof by back up or supporting bible verses to that effect that it has a time frame,also you should have realised that i dislike open ended statements where does "for the most part" start and end sire?
Happy to do so sir, let’s read on;
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
Please note the first word in v13. Please read it from v11 again, And He himself gave, till. It’s for a time, serves a purpose and when that purpose is served, finito. I appreciate you may have different convictions. I say for the most part, because as long as people are being added to the body, there will be some on the path to “till”. But for an individual, as some stage “till” must be reached/attained. It’s a journey. The relevant function/role can equip/help you there. Also note that in a larger context, it’s talking about the whole church and not individuals. Is this now clarified somewhat? Your dislike of open-ended statements is noted.
secondly i dont think you have read that bible verse well or else you wont say they deal with only the physical,last i read prophecies is more spiritual,same goes for teaching the word of GOD evangelising and what the five fold deals with,christian needs and development is more geared towards the spiritual which will drive the physical go and read watchman nee's book"breaking of the outer man,release of the inner man"
For the most part believer fellowship will be physical. Hence the need for structure and functions during gatherings. “The fullness” comes from The Lord via the Holy Spirit. A whole new discussion. Maybe someday we’ll have the pleasure.
I managed to read a half a Watchman Nee book once. First time I never finished a book. Maybe someday. It’s not war games or fillums. You got to live it for yourself. Not to denigrate anyones writings of course.
There’s a well known “prophetess”who is big in certain circles here. I meet a lot of ladies who follow her. They go to one of her seminars and she talks about wilderness. They come out and start shouting wilderness. Christianity is not something you get taught or recieve via doctrine. It’s something you experience, something you live.
while the church is a part of the life of a christian,choosing a partner from both the female and male perspective is also a very important crossroad in one's life as choosing the wrong partner can be disasterous as several biblical instances have shown us, samson and delilah is one,including several GODLY people who were led astray to their destruction due to a union with unGODLY women,there were ocassions when GOD forbade the israelites from marrying from specific tribes e.g the moabites showing the importance of GODly counsel in these matters
Agreed, its important. Samson disobeyed his parent not the Rabbi. It still remains the family prerogative. Church elders can be sought out if required, but not mandatory and not binding. Basic Xtian requirements are clearly laid out. If one can’t adhere to those probably not readt to marry anyway. Ultimately a pastor cannot forcefully stop a wrong/bad/improper union happening anyway. Per your quote, even God did not force his instructions down their throats?
well i am yet to see what particular part of a christian life the church is not relevant,which i hope u will educate me on,but we are talking about marriage and without question i stand by my surmissionthat the church and also the pastor either as a "co-leader" or not is very relevant
The church is only in view when believers gather. Church and by extension elders have no authority in your home, work life, social life or anything outside the gathering. What they feed can influence, motivate, colour or drive, but their authority is confined to the church sphere. As I noted, your Christian faith, beliefs and worldview should colour everything you do. Hopefully your relationship with Christ goes with you everywhere.
Apologies for the formatting, spelling and incomplete response, but its late and I’m tired. I’ll perhaps attempt to tidy it up tomorrow. Conscious of not responding in a timely manner.
Hello GODSON2009, Hope you are well. I have every intention of replying to your earlier post as soon as time permits. A point to note, the statement above attributed to me - that was me you were referring to right? - is simply not a view of mine. "Spiritual fathers", Mummies in Israel" and the like are not notions I subscribe too.
first he/she will determine if the brother is a member of his church,if not then he will go to GOD in prayers concerning that union.
he/she will consult prophets evangelists who GOD speaks through and ask their counsel concerning that union.
even if the brother does not attend his church,as a pastor it is easier for him to make some descreet enquiries from the brother's church
and in conclusion yes, mathew 7 ;By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit
if he was informed,then he would have taken a pro active stance concerning this union,if you read my previous comment i wrote how a man who claimed to be from my church parish went to another city to have an affair with a lady and then borrow 2000 pounds off her and absconded without the knowledge of the pastor,she later found my pastor's tel no and then called him out of the blue,investigations by my pastor showed that he wasnt a member of my parish but another parish in same town she later confessed that he told him he was a deacon in our church and she had also aborted for him.
if you were telling your child off for being naughty,are you controlling him and his life or trying to make things better?
in order for my comments not to sound hollow,i have given you real life instances of why interference is imperative in a momentous decision such as this. if you came to my church and then had an affair with a sister and dumped her no one will mention zodiac61's name because you are gone,the pastor's parish will be the culprit and he will be picking up the pieces,he will be the one counselling the distraught woman
Whilst the "muslim man" was pretending to be a member of Fola Alade's church, what did he (Fola Alade) do about him? If he did not discover that the man was a muslim at the time, what difference would it have made whether he was informed about the attraction of the man to the lady?
The reality is that it is about control. the more the pastor knows about what is going on in his subject's congregation's lives, the easier it is for him to control them. After all, what these pastors crave more than anything else is complete obedience to the leaders' words.
I am certainly for accountability within the body . . . but when it comes to intimate issues of the heart that don't fall under the pastors jurisdiction so to speak, I really do not see the need or justification for a man to subject himself to the "pastor" to "seek God's face" and the "lady's approval" "on his behalf.
Like you said, let the spirit lead, I agree 100%. A man should be seeking only God's face concerning any issue, not imploring the "man of God" to act on his behalf. I know if any pastor, or anyone for the matter approached me on someone else's behalf, I would think the man a misguided, indoctrinated wimp of monumental proportions.
well, what i have deduced for myself is that its all towards accountability. anyways, id simply say u should do as the spirit leads. as simple as that. if you have a disquiet about it, then u should heed it. and vice versa.
Now, as i said earlier, these are not based on any biblical standards(at least. none that i know of).
ok, i have enquired about this in the past and these are some of the reasons i was given for this
1) in the case that the lady in question already has other people in church seeking her hand, the pastor would be in the know and would be better able to advise u. and her.
2) i guess it's just for guidance really, not any biblical basis.i have heard of a case where a 'brother' approached an already married 'sister' claiming he'd 'heard' from God. he didnt know she was married.
When you inform your pastor, who should know his members to an extent, he can advise you.
However, i note this usually works for mostly workers and co in church.
If your pastor knows God's opinion, I mean, if your pastor can be your communicator with God, yes! But the problem is, many are just pastors by profession, but not such in heart - that is why what they say is not what God says and no confirmation. One day I watch on TV, Emmanuel Tv, the pastor said to one couple that they are not meant to be husband and wife and the mother of that man cried because, she doesn't agree with his son's choice - that the son wanted to marry the girl. And, another time, the pastor said to a man to forgive and forget, saying that his wife is really his divine wife. It is good if you can see pastor who knows God's opinion about your situation.
Poster. . .
Does the pastor inform me before he empties the offering boxes into his pockets?
Does the pastor inform me before he steals the tithes and banks it in his name?
The pastor can piss off. . . If i see a yummy lady i like, i bypass the pastor and go for it. .
If the pastor stands in my way, i will beat him down violently!!!
@Arté, I enjoy some of your posts, but I'd like to help make sense of this part of yours:
That's not true. What about versions and translations which do not use the word 'pastors' a single time in their entire New Testaments - could we then use such translations and versions to argue that 'the word "pastor" DOES NOT appear even once in the entire New Testament' - not even 'ONCE'?
Since you're limiting your statement to any number of particular English version(s) of the Bible, the better thing to say is that the word 'pastors' (plural) appears only once in the NT of the King James Version, KJV and some other akin versions, (Ephesians 4:11). However, the original word from which it was translated appears several times in the NT Greek manuscripts of our Bible. I'll just copy from my notes to sort this out.
(1) The word 'pastors' in Eph. 4:11 is ποιμήν (poimēn), appearing no less than 18 times in the NT where it is variously translated as 'shepherd' or 'shepherds' ~
* (shepherd) ~
1 Peter 2:25
* (shepherds) ~
* (pastors) ~
(2) Apart from the KJV, there are other versions and translations which translate ποιμήν (poimēn) in Eph. 4:11 as 'pastors', such as the ASV, NIV, NASB, NLT, NKJV, CEV, HCSB, and several more.
(3) The Amplified uses both English words 'pastors' and 'shepherds' - "some pastors (shepherds of His flock)"
(4) Some other modern translations like the ESV (English Standard Version), the YLT (Young's Literal Translation), and Darby (1889 tr.) do not use the word 'pastors' even once in their New Testaments - NOT EVEN ONCE. They rather use the word 'shepherds' in Ephesians 4:11.
(5) This same Greek word ποιμήν (poimēn) is used in reference to our Lord Jesus Christ as well, Who is thus addressed in the following manner ~
* 'the Shepherd (ποιμήν) and Bishop of your souls' ~ 1 Peter 2:25
* 'that great Shepherd (ποιμήν) of the sheep' ~ Heb. 13:20
* 'I am the good Shepherd (ποιμήν)' ~ John 10:11
(6) There should be no quarrel or confusion between the English equivalents of 'pastors' or 'shepherds' for the Greek (ποιμήν) - so, whether someone wants to use either words in Ephesians 4:11 (as does the Amplified), the essential message should not be lost on us. The point is that it is not true to state that the word "pastor" appears only once in the entire New Testament: as we have seen, such an argument is unnecessary and immature.
(7) Although the word 'pastors' conjures some ill feelings in the minds of many Christians today, that should not make us lose sight of the fact that 'Pastors' are part of Christ's gifts to His Church (Ephesians 4:11). A healthy fellowship is one where local pastors are loved, respected and supported in the very important work which they do - Hebrews 13:7.
My pal woye77, thanks for the invitation. The topic is timely, especially because of the things I see among some (please note: 'some') Nigerian Christians whenever I visit London. I can't say much at this time, but suffice that believers (men) should be able to seek their own women as a matter of their own choice, rather than something like an 'application' at the gate of some company. I hope no one would be put off by my remarks, as that was not meant to be cynical - but men who are 'men' should be 'men' where it matters.
Proverbs 18:22 - 'Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the LORD'. To 'find', the 'seeking' must take place as a matter of personal responsibility. It does not say that the favour was to be bestowed on the person seeking a wife on behalf of someone else.
(Just an asides, though. . . I know of some pastors/ leaders of churches who met their partners through the 'ministry' of a 'go-between' - you know, the type where someone says: 'please put in a good word for me. . toast her over to my coast'. I'm not making fun of such men, but they should not make things turn out like a circus for people under their leadership).
please read through this and explain what it means to me since you r soo knowleadgeable lol
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
(ephesians chapter 4)
if you have answered no then i will be interested in knowing what order of haierachy you are following concerning jesus christ and the five fold ministry e.t.c
are all christians all exercising the same level of faith?
or maybe you are now telling us that every christian must have their own personal churches individually seeing as pastor are not important and dont play any role.
i asked you earlier on if you have come across the five fold ministry but you didnt reply, that in itself shows you that there are relevant religious leaders after christ who the lord has sent to minister and take care of his people.
go and read acts of the apostles and the letters of apostle paul including the functions of the disciples after jesus left, in genesis who did abraham .
in conclusion again go and read genesis 24,
why didnt abraham send his son isaac to go off and look for a wife amongst his people after his death??
after all according to your own reasoning,he was an adult and didnt need the guidance of anyone least of all a pastor,
we have been told that isaac prior to that time was a compliant and gentle child who obeyed his father when he wanted to sacrifice him,so he must have been a model child yet his father sought the guidance of a knowledgeable and matured servant to lead him to the right wife.
You should inform the pastor definitely.
Also inform the detectives at the local police department, the district attorney at the court house, the butcher at the local grocery store and if you have time the mechanic that regularly services your car.
The complimentary role that pastors are supposed to play in our lives has been so assaulted, bastardized, modified, re-packaged and then elevated and placed on an untouchable pedestal that is a few rungs higher up the ladder than even God himself. And where's the Holyspirit in all this? relegated to a pastime role if any at all. I am fearful for naija "churches" and "christians".