When Did God Create Animals?

Why are there no fossils of rabbits in pre-Cambrian and Cambrian rocks

What are stromalolites?

What is the end-permian extinction event?

What is cognitive dissonance?

I bet, no honest Christian can answer these questions. I would like to be proved wrong.


10 answers

I have never read the k-ran, but can the following be found therein?

", now that a Book confirming their own has come to them from God, they deny it, they reply: 'We believe in what was revealed to us.' But they deny what has since been revealed, although it is truth, Say: 'Whoever is an enemy of Gabriel' (who has by God's grace revealed to you [Muhammad] the Koran as a guide, confirming previous scriptures), will surely find that God is the enemy of the unbelievers.', And now that an apostle has come to them from God confirming their own Scriptures, some of those to whom the Scriptures were given cast off the Book of God behind their backs, The unbelievers among the People of the Book, and the pagans, resent that any blessings should have been sent down to you from your Lord. " (Surah 2:88-, 98-, 103-)

"Slay them wherever you find them, Idolatry is worse than carnage, Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)

"Men are tempted [in this life] by the lure of women, far better is the return of God. Say: 'Shall I tell you of better things than these, with which the righteous shall be rewarded by their Lord? Theirs shall be gardens watered by running streams, where they shall dwell for ever: wives of perfect chastity, " (Surah 3:14, 15)

"The only true faith in God's sight is Islam." (Surah 3:19)

"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people, They desire nothing but your ruin, You believe in the entire Book, When they meet you they say: 'We, too, are believers.' But when alone, they bite their finger-tips with rage." (Surah 3:118, 119)

"If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, His forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches, " (Surah 3:156-)

"To those that declare: 'God has commanded us to believe no apostle unless he brings down fire to consume an offering,' say: 'Other apostles before me [Muhammad] have come to you with veritable signs and worked the miracle you asked for, If they reject you [Muhammad], other apostles have been rejected before you, " (Surah 3:183-)

"If you wish to replace a wife with another, do not take from her the dowry you have given her, " (Surah 4:20)

"Forbidden to you are, married women, except those you own as slaves." (Surah 4:20-, 24-)

"Believers, do not approach your prayers when you are drunk, but wait till you can grasp the meaning of your words, " (Surah 4:43)

"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)

"Try as you may, you cannot treat all your wives impartially." (Surah 4:126-)

"The Jews and Christians say: 'We are the children of God and His loved ones.' Say: 'Why then does He punish you for your sins?" (Surah 5:18)

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)

"The God will say: 'Jesus, son of Mary, did you ever say to mankind 'Worship me and my mother as gods besides God?' 'Glory to You, 'he will answer, 'how could I ever say that to which I have no right?" (Surah 5:114-)

"Believers, when you encounter the infidels on the march, do not turn your backs to them in flight. If anyone on that day turns his back to them, except it be for tactical reasons, he shall incur the wrath of God and Hell shall be his home, " (Surah 8:12-)

"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (Surah 8:36-)

"If you fear treachery from any of your allies, you may fairly retaliate by breaking off your treaty with them." (Surah 8:51-)

", make war on the leaders of unbelief, Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them, " (Surah 9:12-)

"It ill becomes the idolaters [non-Muslims] to visit the mosques of God, " (Surah 9:17)

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians], until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)

"It is He who has sent forth His apostle with guidance and the true Faith [Islam] to make it triumphant over all religions, however much the idolaters [non-Muslims] may dislike it." (Surah 9:31-)

"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)

"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)

"Say: 'Praise be to God who has never begotten a son; who has no partner in His Kingdom, " (Surah 17:111)

"'How shall I bear a child,' she [Mary] answered, 'when I am a virgin, ?' 'Such is the will of the Lord,' he replied. 'That is no difficult thing for Him, God forbid that He [God[ Himself should beget a son!, Those who say: 'The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,' preach a monstrous falsehood, " (Surah 19:12-, 29-, 88)

"Fight for the cause of God with the devotion due to Him, He has given you the name of Muslims, " (Surah 22:78-)

"Blessed are the believers, who restrain their carnal desires (except with their wives and slave-girls, for these are lawful to them), These are the heirs of Paradise, " (Surah 23:1-5-)

"You shall not force your slave-girls into prostitution in order that you make money, if they wish to preserve their chastity." (Surah 24:33-)

"As for the faithful who do good works and believe what is revealed to Muhammad, He will forgive them their sins, " (Surah 47:1)

"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)

"Shall the reward of goodness be anything but good?, Dark-eyed virgins sheltered in their tents, They shall recline on green cushions and fine carpets, Blessed be the name of your Lord, " (Surah 55:52-66-)



Over 1400 years ago, the Qur'an from that point had continued to challenge man to read and observe and research and discover and punder about all things, including the universe, etc! Huxley, if you had been a true seeker of knowledge, you would have studied the Qur'an. Allah says in this book; don't the disbelievers see that the heavens and the earth are one and we split them apart and made everything out of water? Chapter 21 verse 30.

If you had read the qur'an you would have seen where it is commanded that no one should should kill their children for any mundane reason.

You need to read the Qur'an and know what is stated since 1400 years, that it is not irrelevant to science, and there are still many more to be discovered about this in the future.


Old habits die rather too slowly. How is Ibrahim Jewish, a man who came from Iraq and dies before Jacob and his children, from where Judaism or Jew as a word sprang come left for Egypt? Did he become Jew in the grave, after he had died? I was joking with a friend the other day and i said that will an american will say on the Judgement day: I am an american man, you got to judge me as an american?

She laughed, definitely realising that your national identity is irrelevant and dies when you die. I will ask if those people who died before america was named the United States, prior to the war of independence, can they be said to be US Citizen? If all of this is not possible, then to attach Judaism as Ibrahim identity is wrong labelling of his person.


Great post. Little there to disagree with except one thing.

Like you say, changing minds is a very challenging thing. I like your reference to the situation the Europeans would have faced with trying to change the Africa's minds from traditional African beliefs to now believing in the Judeo-Christian myth.

Basically, if the belief was not harmful to society and if there were not spreading their vile beliefs I would not care so much. I shall give some example of the dangers we face if the majority of people have beliefs that are not founded in reality;

1) The Catholic church discourages the use of condoms even in countries (and families) where AIDS is a risk solely on religious grounds

2) Religious institutions oppose stem-cell research on religious grounds.

3) Slavery, witchhunts was justified on religious grounds

4) 9/11 was religiously motivated

5) The teaching of evolution is opposed on religious grounds.

Do you see the dangers that our civilisation faces from the dark-age mentality of the religious.

While I agree that patience and education is required, the spread of fundamentalism is Africa and other parts of the world far outstrips the pace of educations in scientific rationalism. If the enlightened did nothing and allowed themselves to be silenced by the religious majority, where do you think we would be today?

We would still be having religious motivated witch-hunts in all Christian cities of the world.



I really appreciate your views, but you have to learn to accommodate others who do not necessarily share your views. You should also learn social evolution apart from biological evolutions.

All societies starts out with Animism, which involves human sacrifice and all. It is after societal advancement that a few people are able to gradually lead people away from such practices. And these people did not change their societies by being to aggressive, confrontational or arrogant, and they still suffered a lot of persecution. Eg Copernicus, Galileo, etc.

Galileo was only pardoned by the Catholic church less than 10 years ago for heresy ( saying that the earth was a sphere and it revolves around the sun and not the other way as divinely ordained by the church).

I do not support sacrifices and killing of twins, but every society including European, Arabic and even Jewish (Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son to God) practice human sacrifice at some time. It is through Education and Reason that these practices were stopped.

Also because we are still backward is a lot of are practices due to ignorance and high level of illiteracy, but changing the society should be approached systematically or else you will not achieve anything but hated.

You must learn to understand and appreciate other people's beliefs before you can even attempt to change them. The European had a very difficult time converting our people, also the Arabs had to do it by force. People do not change their established beliefs easily. I am sure it took a lot from you before you could leave Christianity.

So have patience, people will eventually change when they realize that their destiny is in their hands and not in the Hands of any God/spirit/demon/angels.

Where is Europe that formulated, propagated and died for Christianity today, they have moved on.

We will get there, It is only a matter of time


Many thanks for your post. I appreciate it greatly that you have read my post and most of all, asked some very insightful questions. I think you have touched the heart of the reason why I post at all on this forum.

Ok, let me start. I am extremely passionate about education (not just the type that allows one to gain employer) and I believe that seeking after true knowledge is at the heart of what makes us human. Consequently, I take a dim view of supernaturalism as they have proven to be notoriously unreliable. I also like to share my view with others, not so much to show-off as to prompt other to think outside their usually uncritical paradigm. That is not to say that my view are correct. In fact, I am more concerned about the process, than the end result. In other words, I am more concerned about how one gets at truths about the nature of reality than at the truths themselves.

Now, how do we come to understand the nature of reality? Do you know of any systematic epistemic methodology for investigating reality? There are two competing tradition that claim to be able to reveal knowledge about reality;

1) Scientific rationalism

2) Supernaturalism and revelations

Of these two, which has contributed more towards the advancement of human knowledge about reality?

Please, do not mistake my passion for investigating reality for arrogance. There is nothing that I know that is beyond the ability of any individual to learn themselves as long as they have started asking themselves the important questions about reality. However, a certain mode of thinking inevitably puts outside the trend of modern civilisation. Consider the tribe in Nigeria that used to abandon its twin children in the forest because they believed that twins possessed ill omens. While it would be wrong to consider oneself superior to a practitioner of twins-abandonment, I totally despise their beliefs and would not refrain from criticizing such beliefs.

Take for instance, the natural phenomenon of lightening. Only about 200 years ago, it was widely believed that lightening strikes were sent by god as a sign of his displeasure with humans. Why is it wrong and dangerous to have such beliefs and how can one go about investigating the truth of such claims?

To be an evolutionist is not a metaphysical or moralistic position. It is simply an acknowledgement of the fact that life on the planet has undergone evolutionary change over time. PERIOD. It is NOT a religious position nor a belief system. Being an evolutionist is not inconsistent with anything else except an acceptance of evolution from common descent. Thus one can be an evolutionist and at the same time be arrogant, deceitful, criminal, pleasant, trustworthy, charitable, etc, etc. None of these is a requirement to be an an evolutionist. Just as none of these are a requirement to be a physicist, cosmologist, or economist.

I am more critical of those who deserve to know better but are deliberately and willfully ignorant of the facts and evidence. Much more so when they try to spread their falsehood.

I disagree. Respect should be reserved for people [/b]and [b]NOT for beliefs. What if the belief about twin-abandonment, human sacrifices, slavery etc had been respected. Would the world be a better place?

Should we respect the belief that the Africaans in South Africa thought they were superior to the Africa?


Very very true, i am a non believer in religion my self but i dislike the way huxley goes about attcking people's beliefs and complaining at the same time, to most people as you have aforementioned their belief is their life and their total being revolves around their beliefs, so tread carefully huxley you are gradually becoming a fanatic(athiest fanatic) you can easily make your case without an affront on other people's beliefs. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .



I can answer your questions except the last one. I have no idea what cognitive dissonance is, so please educate me. I am always eager to learn from those more knowledgeable than myself.

The problem i have with you is the reasons for asking these questions.

If you are asking because you do not know and want to improve your knowledge, then it is alright.

If you truly know and want to share your knowledge, it is also alright.

But if you ask because you just want to show off, or you think you are better than others, then thats egocentric arrogance, you are not better than religionists who view themselves as superior to everyone else.

A true Evolutionist must NEVER be arrogant, but must understand, appreciate and respect other people beliefs. To most people, their beliefs is their life, so it must be respected. I hate it when people try to ridicule other people beliefs. A person beliefs according to their exposure, education, custom and orientation. You cannot expect someone who has never been to school to understand evolution. Likewise a Christian cannot understand Buddhism.

The world would be a better place if we learn to respect the beliefs of others.


CAn you show me how that is an insult to my pride and intelligence?


Would I not be insulting your intelligence and pride if I said that your forefather was a fish?

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